Discussion in 'Campaign Feedback' started by sneezing slug, May 19, 2019.
Post your stuff here instead.
My reason for really wanting Tech-Com to have spread-out bases as opposed to one central BP isn't entirely rooted in a desire for realism. I like to nudge towards realism wherever I can but we're roleplaying in a 2003 game engine with lots of restrictions, so realism isn't always possible or favorable for circumstances.
Having a series of small, claustrophobic outposts encourages a dynamic on Tech-Com's side, especially if these outposts each possess a feature of a would-be BP; ie. One of them has a field lab for Charlie, maybe a few of them have a triage inside of them, or one of them has a weapons cache and functions as a QM station. Instead of forcing an arbitrary "only X Tech-Com members can be in here", make them small.
Tech-Com is then forced into a choice: Roleplay with the people in their immediate vicinity, or leave the outpost to go to another one (or elsewhere) in order to utilize that other station's features, or to simply find a different space to roleplay in. This moment of transit also exposes those roleplayers to the outside world, and that doesn't just mean terminators. It's really hard to roleplay a scavenger that's "independent" of Tech-Com when largely the only roleplay in the server is centered around Baseplate. I find myself asking admins on occasion if there's even anyone wandering outside that I could possibly encounter or roleplay with, and I'm often met with the truth that there's hardly anybody outside base.
There also comes the fact that SkyNET and Tech-Com could trade control of these outposts, giving Tech-Com something to do other than mindlessly patrol and hope they run into a bot-- They can go out and launch an attack in order to recapture one of their outposts. (I'd also say that each outpost still would require admin/command authorization to attack-- Constant forced movement isn't healthy for roleplay.)
That's what I was really hoping from this event. I know I'm in the minority on this, but I wish the above was the status quo. I feel like a central "BP" has more cons than pros for roleplaying in the server.
i dont even play trp but multiple bases sounds like a lot more fun
From past experience I hold the opinion that multiple bases sucks for roleplay and cramming everyone together is actually really good. Also if we occupied multiple functioning bases at a time we'd be using a LOT of props.
There's a difference between having numerous outposts and forcing people to be split up.
You don't need a billion props for an outpost.
until you find yourself running between each one trying to find roleplay
either way seems like the primary issue is a hyper aggressive skynet that keeps pushing tc from check point to check point even when they're already spread out, if so what's the point of that?
...Maybe the thing that needs to be fixed is more organization? Like a dispatch system.
People don't like running around to find roleplay, but stuffing all the RP into a single point is... well, dull in my experience. No matter the genre if only a centralized RP hub exists that both renders the rest of the map somewhat moot, and can cause a bit of a roleplay singularity. And what if people want to do more? I remember when I was a Scav on TRP, I was basically forced to stick around Baseplate to do anything except find random guns. And uh, I hated it. Felt like bricks were tied to my feet.
These outposts have radios in'em, yeah? So maybe Tech-Com could assign a member from Charlie to act as a base RTO to keep communication. Try and keep a rough tally of how many folks are in each outpost, keep them manned. If one has too many or not enough, sound the horn and change the guard shift. This way groups trying to RP can do so in transit, move to the outpost, and continue the RP there. It also removes the necessity of Skynet artificiality forcing people to move around and cull RP willy-nilly.
The robots can still attack and try to take the outposts, but it doesn't have to be a constant. It'll let conflict and duties feel more organic instead of for a distinct purpose.
My experience With this event is mainly positive. The event changes the Power Balance to one where techcom is on the low end doing more guerilla warfare.
I find this experience fresh, and while I must admit that I am also irked when my roleplay is interrupted time and time again. The atmosphere and feeling of distress the constant fallbacks from position to position caused, had a very positive effect on my roleplay when I finally did get time to roleplay.
The case People have mainly stated they disliked was more a case of mis and bad communication more than any real desire for it to happen as it did.
I am open for more events like this in the future.
I'm honestly against the stigma that you're somehow not allowed to (or at least discouraged to) ask people OOC where the roleplay is. I have a very stark memory of HL2RP's S2 of people politely asking where they could find the roleplay at and being hit with a wave of "Find out IC". There's nothing IC about mindlessly running around trying to look for people to actually play with, sometimes for a whole hour on maps like ineu valley.
TRP has certainly been much better about getting players involved with most anything.
I agree with ClearyInvisible I am playing as Scav/Trader and I found that when you want to play as a person who doesn't like Tech comm and wants to stick with other groups it doesn't really go well beacuse either all members of those other groups are in Tech comm BP , nowhere or rarely active.
I also feals that if you want to play on Trp you NEED to stick with tech comm to be part of fun if you decide not to stick with Tech comm then only think you get is empty map with only Ts patrolling no actions no parts of story only empty map and I don't really like if there is somethink planned it always needs to have tech comm involved I never seen a event where scavs / wastelanders had a main role for just a moment. [ Maybe expect this cultist event ]
And I get it that is very hard to make somethink that isn;t 100% Tech comm involved but I would like to see alternative for people who don't want to stick with tech comm all the time and still be able to be part of events.
A litte info before I get rekt by people in comments I know that there are other factions/ groups but they are rarely active atlest for me beacuse I live in diffrent timezone .
And I know some of you may have no freaking idea what I just writed and I get it my writing can be not the best so you don;t need to spam my post with those "???" emotes or comment how my writing is bad I get it .
And yes I know this isn;t the perfect place to post it but why not :D
I have to say that the idea of this setting of intensity with TC always being caught on the ass end of Skynet really provides with a really great atmosphere. It gives the sense of true fear and reaction that no where is safe and also that it is truly dangerous for everyone. But it is kinda hard to get into having multiple bases and constantly moving around but that then gives people with the restlessness that comes from constant chasing. So it's great not gonna lie.
This would've been fine if this was the case but I'm finding the exact opposite to be true. Even as the rules stated, drones needed zero authorization to attack any human outpost for the smallest amount of suspicion and look where it landed us. Moving base to base every 30 minutes or being stuck on constant guard duty. SkyNet's overzealous nature during this event has practically degraded much of Tech-Com and I have more than enough in chat logs to prove that. It was even to a point where SkyNet was practically following us from outpost to outpost and we had to edge-run across the map.
You really can't just change the status quo of a server in a single weekend. I agree multiple bases could work but it's a jarring change and sounds like more work than anything else. Need to talk to Charlie? Time to run across the map. Someone hurt? Need to run across the map. My command needs me? Need to run across the map.
We've always experimented with a Baseplate plus 2/3 outpost setup and people almost always gravitate back towards Baseplate. A central hub for RP isn't a bad thing, it's where we can interact without having to worry about being slaughtered every odd hour.
To be faaaaaaaaaaaaair,
If we did this again but revised the drone rules a bit and had more of an auth-esque system that'd allow for another party to determine when they intervene ie: "Drone [DRONE PLAYER]: /a Hey I can hear them through this wall can I check this out or just pass closely?" "Drone.SCD.####: // nah fam they just got chased give 'em a moment." or "admin: // nah fam they're playing it the best they can with source."
I could see it working out better as a high-intensity situation for the humans where there is technically no guaranteed safe spot but playing it smart means you're ok.
Really, and this should have been seen coming, there are SkyNET players (you know who you are) who get on server, bitch about how overpowered TC is because "oH tHeY'rE ThE gOoD gUyS" (stop this... morons) and take every opportunity they can to flex their big digital metal dick and be assholes to people for shits and giggles. Those players simply can't be trusted to regulate themselves because they feel some weird desire to punish people they think are making silly mistakes when in all reality there is only so much we can do in the source engine.
And before any of you say that that is an exaggeration, it's not, I've been in voice with these chuckleheads as they cackle and technically follow the drone rules but always manage to find a way to juuuuuuuust mange to be in a situation where they can repeatedly and unfairly dick on people. They exist, and there's more than one.
Yeah I'm gonna be honest here, I think some of the regular skynet players have really been dropping the ball recently in regards to having some respect for people actually RPing and displaying the restraint /discretion that accompanies it.
Though ultimately I would also say the hiccups of this weekend are a failure on our part (the admin team) for not introducing the altered ROE and testing it out before changing to the new map specifically tailored to the playstyle. I was excited for the changes as it seems to reflect a more gritty and potentially more engaging asymmetrical element to the war against the machines, but we need the entire playerbase to meet halfway on this one. Tech-comm players that are willing to accept defeat on IC terms and Skynet players with restraint, respect and acknowledge the limitations of gmod/source. By the way, I include the admin team when I say "players" because ultimately most of the admins have characters and factions they're invested in too.
We'll gladly provide more scenarios in the future along these lines but overall consider this an ongoing experiment as the event is still going. The feedback and criticism is very much appreciated and necessary in what will be an ongoing process of addressing many of the server's longstanding issues by offering better alternatives to the playerbase that everyone can have more fun with. Above it all, just try and have mutual respect for each other. Try to look at the larger picture instead of viewing each moment as it's own incident, play the game in a way that makes people want to come back and play again.
As one of those finding themselves on a drone a lot for this event, I just want to start with this. Yes. I do get frustrated with TC more often than not. It is very much an annoyance when you're expected to help, and its just to get demolished over and over again. Yes, when in S2K, there are those like me that can get overzealous and not be as lenient with TC. Getting up close to fight a bot should be dangerous, but its a rare occasion that I'll kill you if you are actively trying to run and get distance. Most of the time you see hard S2K, it's situations like people rushing a drone to try and finish it off, or the machine being in a spot where it just isn't feasible to try and get shots on it safely, and you have to get it baited out. (IE, hugging a wall under a roof full of TC.) In the end, its a video game however, so perhaps both sides, and I include myself in this, need to just take a chill pill. Or fourteen shots of vodka.
All of that out of the way, at least while I've been on my drone, we've been pretty lenient with people out in the field. We had several close encounters with sneaky TC patrols where we'd pause to make them worried, but had no intention of actually finding them. We even had a T-800 distracted by mother nature itself after a Scav skylined and gave a TC patrol's rough location away. The only time that we had someone found, it was from myself asking that that person, if they would be alright being spotted, to help create a short, tense scene, where they walked away with light injuries, and her team got to put an 800 to shame in a well executed ambush to rescue her. Now, this is just my personal experiences, and I can't speak for everyone, but atleast when I was on my drone, Skynet was doing its best to let TC breath.
I think Resistance outposts that are clearly putting in a good faith effort to fight smart should be able to repel attacks from medium-sized SkyNET raids, SkyNET's rules of engagement make sense in the context, but I think as long as Resistance are staying scattered they shouldn't just be forced out of big buildings. E.g. If there's people at Hydroplant and they're clearly using the limited entrances to their advantage
PS: Can I stop getting shot in the face by the 200? :(
I think one of the biggest problems that became a compounding factor for everything that went wrong in this event, even if I enjoyed it, is the same question everyone seemed to ask in OOC if they just connected for the first time in the day, or even the first time in the past few hours: "Where the hell even is anything or anyone right now?"
This alone creates several issues, if a drone isn't quite sure where they should be a bit more careful, measured, a bit more like a stalking serial killer to create tension, they're more likely to barge into a building, thinking that it's justified to to so, to be suddenly facing down twenty or so players. If a human player isn't sure where the roleplay is, and is getting only vague directions before being TP'd to everyone and not knowing anything more about the map, the entire map is an unknown(and this is a pretty big map), which makes the whole thing seem hostile. As a result of not knowing where anything is, I actually spent a good... Hour or so typing /lev's and waiting for a go signal yesterday, only to stomp around through an empty base that actually was abandoned about eight hours ago, /meing looking for infantry, equipment, ect, only to find out there was nobody around.
Actually creating a map, as painful as it is for someone to have to hand draw it, map it, or what have you, might actually resolve some of that, we standardize some naming conventions for locations, and we become familiar with it as we are with say, futurewar. At that point we need to then agree on some basic conventions of the base, as while Reaver events are scary, if we are pressuring people with the conventional stuff, maybe we need to let them feel safe from Reavers, as they tend to close off underground sections entirely at the moment. If underground sections are closed off, the top level stuff gets crowded, and gets seen as an invitation/provocation to attack again. Of course, that's not addressing the map limitation where the underground is so dark that we actually can't even attempt to set a base up down there for either lagging the server out with lights, or stumbling around with flashlights that only let us see our nose in front of our face.
We also could have probably eased into the multi base setup instead with a map or relay system in place, though relaying info in this case would have to take a more Arma approach, with 275 being reserved suddenly as our main band of communication cross bases, making it look something more like:
“This is outpost 2 to outpost 1, come in.”
“Outpost 1; go ahead.”
“We’ve got a couple drones hanging around, can you send someone to draw them off/prep an evac?”
Not having a radio channel to yell across base with isn’t ideal, but it would make people a little more aware of the resource. Now I’m not saying ‘guys lol it’s easy just don’t be bad at radio’. There’s a lot more logistics than that. Perhaps the rollout of the event system was a little sudden, we could have attempted to run two bases at once, even if one is filled with event characters or something similar to artificially increase the player count there. That would allow us to at least lean further and further towards the more fractured operations. Since this is an event style I’ve enjoyed, and one I genuinely want to see continue and be improved on, I’d much rather we talk about what worked, what we think could have been done better, and what might need to be dropped. I’m actually considering adopting this rule set for the Valkyrie safe house program with the suggestion @A Blaze of Glory mentioned, as it provides wonderful roleplay opportunities and close calls when done correctly. We also have a ton of neat roleplay teaching opportunities here, and if we refuse to engage them here they might only worsen.
I’ll start off with Tech-Comm and we’ll move to Skynet afterwards, vegetables before candy and all that. Tech-Comm I don’t think was entirely ready for the drastic change in the rules of operation, we can throw blame at TC, Skynet, the admins, whoever, but we all can benefit from taking a breather and thinking about what we could do better instead. I keep coming back to the idea of using each squad for specific tasks in this case rather than moving around with motley crews and jamming people wherever they fit.
In this case, Alpha builds a map, scouts for routes, marks and standardizes call outs for landmarks, and determines possible bases, and maybe even how many people can be stuffed into each one safely. Can the base support having a medbay? Is the player count enough to warrant doing that? After the initial stuff though, they act as guides and lead teams between outposts, rather than whatever the highest NCO is bushwhacking directly there being guided by an admin. This would take a lot more time and effort, but I think it’d be more fun and embody what alpha is supposed to be.
Bravo has to provide security, and hammer blows when needed. This may take the form of rotating guard shifts, placing people together so they have someone to interact with rather than just staring at a landscape, maybe even rotating them every thirty minutes or an hour. Sure, this is just passive in a different location, but it at least fulfills two purposes there. This also allows Bravo to occasionally tread into more hit and run tactics when dealing with a situation where an outpost is being assaulted, or a convoy has been. After all, they don’t need to wipe out the enemy, just inflict casualties, and buy time for people to get out of there or mount a second offensive to help crush the incoming drones. Sure, TC in this scenario might have to leave afterwards, but this is at least something that allows them a known out, rather than old BP setups where it was ‘hold or die and if you die respawn and come back’. Making it okay to lose ground is good, but some people might start thinking there’s nothing to be gained.
Side note time!:
I think we should have implemented a few carrots here along with the stick. People holding these other outposts maybe receiving the chance to collect weaponry or equipment somehow? A more long-term scoring system that unlocks new equipment for the faction if enough designated outposts are held for a long enough time? Just something to make people feel like they’re not wasting time there would be nice. We can even implement it as a reward or something after the event for maintaining FOBs so that there’s encouragement to do more stuff like this, getting back on track.
Charlie’s role might be a bit more nebulous here, their activity and ability to do anything in this situation is slightly diluted with the current state of Titan and the proliferation of plasma, it’ll become a lot of backbone work we typically ignore or assume is done unless stated otherwise. Things like getting the site networked, power on, that sort of thing, maybe even treading into dapper territory with setting up barricades and such, sadly this nomad lifestyle will likely hit this squad the hardest.
Now onto the part that I’m sure everyone upset with the way SkyNET played has been waiting for.
Guys, come on, we could do better than this.
As entertaining for like, the four seconds it may be that you down someone, it's kind of an overall pain in the ass later on down the line, not only are they down whatever they might have dropped, but now they're either sitting out the rest of the encounter, or at the very least having a not so fun run back. Not only that, it doesn't make for, as corny as this may sound a 'war story' or a 'water cooler moment'. Nobody's going to mention the time that a eighter turned the corner and blasted them down unless a lot of other good stuff was going on, or they're doing so in frustration.
In S2K, this can just happen, but, if it's happening too much, TC isn't firing back, or doesn't seem confident enough that they'll take you down before you reach the battlements, take a breath, and enjoy the scenery. Fire a little less, swap targets, give a wide spray above their heads, make them feel the near miss rather than your direct pressure. Marching at the target should be used as a threat to pressure them into reacting to you, if they're not reacting to you, maybe they have too much on their plate already? Give them a second to realize you're there. I'm perhaps guilty of giving people too much time, and shooting right in front of their nose from only a short distance away until they finally realized I was there.
However, this sort of situation and event style gives us a much, much better tool for RP that's way more interesting, something I like to just call 'Movie Killer Mindset'. No, not as in that you're going to hunt them down as some unstoppable force, more that you're right there, and you might actually know they're there, but as the person in the movie, or IC in this case, you are doing everything you can to make it believable that they're just out of reach, just a breath away from being found. Sure, it might not be entirely realistic that a machine with hyper-advanced sensory suites and thermal tracking doesn't immediately spot them, but, how much fun is that versus playing the full cat and mouse out? Emote slow scans of the room, stomping around, throwing over furniture, marching through bushes, blasting a random piece of cover to see if you get a response.
Another side note:
I think we could have done for less ground units with target finders, and more things like HK's running spotlights, with clear direction on what they can and can't see. I've seen this be run a few times, and every time it's a load of fun it seems for everyone involved.
If people aren't just throwing back one liner emotes or pulling stupid things, go ahead and let them go without so much as a warning, after all, you got a bit of RP, and they got a fun little moment there that's much more memorable than the fifth time they were gunned down today. All of that being said, perhaps I just talked to people, or saw people complaining who blew the problem out of proportion, maybe this isn't a popular problem that weighed things down, but it's worth reminding ourselves that that's part of the job too, letting people get away. By all means, scare the shit out of them, but let them slip away. I think that mentality might have been part of the problem that lead to complaints of drones waiting around outside whatever base people were in, followed by raids so common plenty of people probably weren't even all that interested in bothering to participate in the defense. Sure, it could be said that was playing by the ruleset of the event, but, treat this like DnD, the rules are there to facilitate fun, not to spoil it.
Let's just make sure we're having a talk about what went right and what went wrong so that we can at least try to build upon this as a community rather than just complaining it wasn't perfect.