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CCC: The Failed Economy and Its Effects

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Rionas, Nov 13, 2017.

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  1. Rionas

    Rionas Legend

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    Hey guys, it's been a while. TnB has been floating around my head a lot recently, so I decided to come back and make a post about HL2rp's economy. I've been out of the loop for a few months, so some of this might be a little dated, but here it is. (tldr provided)


    It's no secret that HL2rp's economy is nonexistent. This isn't anything new, and there probably isn't a single HL2rp server out there with an actual economy. Why would there be? After all, there's no reference to money at all in HL2 and it's pretty clear the Combine give the citizenry everything they need. For a pure HL2rp, the economy wouldn't be present.

    We are not a pure rendition of HL2. We have money, a combine bureaucracy, boats, and all sorts of things that HL2 doesn't mention or touch on in the slightest. So, why don't we have an economy? Let's explore the server's resident shambling corpse.

    Whether we like it or not, work has always been a very important part of daily life. You work to survive, affect the world around you, and to keep yourself comfortable. Employment provides work and gives workers a certain amount of buying power.

    Here at TnB, the selection of jobs for people isn't too great. You can:
    • Run a store
    • Become a member of the CCA/CA
    • Volunteer for the "mandatory" Combine-issued temporary jobs
    • Volunteer as resistance personnel/form your own group
    • Take up crime (lol)
    Joe Citizen doesn't really have options. He can sit around trying to hock goods all day and take the odd workshift, but that's basically it. Most likely he's going to end up as a cop or a rebel before too long, and he doesn't necessarily require money outside of that, as both the CCA and the resistance (afaik) will provide him with everything he needs. Hell, the only people that even have to worry about supplies are the people running shops, and those don't last very long seeing as the only customers are people who haven't unlocked a certain permit yet.

    This is a recipe for a stagnant economy. Very little money is being traded between players.

    You might ask, "Why does the economy even matter? This is an RP, not real life." To put it simply: the economy is a good motivational tool and helps RP happen. If Joe Citizen doesn't have a motivation to go out and do shit, chances are he wont.

    Obviously an economy needs an economic system, and it's pretty clear from past attempts at solving the stagnation that a free market system, where citizens handle the majority of the economy, will not work. Citizens will never generate the level of capital needed for a free market to function, and it is clear that the Combine are set on handling the planet's industry. This leaves us to either a mixed or a command economy, where the Combine control a significant amount, if not all of the economy.

    How has the Combine handled the economy? From what I can think of, the Combine provide the following:​

    • Posters
    • Work shifts
    • Rations via Mass Distribution
    • Rations via Single Distribution (touching a terminal)
    Why haven't these worked?

    The Combine do not provide opportunities to earn/gain money frequently. Most of the time when the Combine does provide things like work events, they are not engaging to the majority of participants and pay very little. Sometimes, workers are not even paid for the time they spent at the shift.

    This limits the purchasing power of the citizen worker.

    (If you don't like math this next part is going to suck.)

    For example, let's say that Jane Smith runs a workshift with 10 workers that assemble 10 tables. She pays each worker one ration at the end of the two hour shift. Each worker now has 50 or so credits in their pocket, for a total of 500 credits. Therefore, each worker's purchasing power has supposedly increased by 50 credits.

    Unfortunately, there are not many places to spend this money. They could spend it in the buy menu, spend it at a shop, or pay off their crushing debt.

    Two out of three of those options send those 50 credits to the void, removing them from the server economy. Chances are, most of the 500 credits earned in that work shift are burned, and very few credits actually exchange hands between players. It is impossible to tell exactly how much money gets destroyed/wasted in the fashion, but there is one thing that's calculable: how much money the Combine destroys.

    Every hour, a base amount of 3520 credits in rations and posters are available to be distributed by the CCA. This gets refilled by the "shipment of combine supplies" that come in every 60 minutes. If the CCA doesn't distribute anything in that hour, the credits are essentially burned.

    Every day the CCA doesn't hand out any rations or posters, 84,480 credits are burned. Every week nothing gets handed out, 591,360 credits get burned.

    While we can't control how much money gets burned by the players, we can control the amount that gets burned by the CCA. Injecting credits into the citizenry would open the door to all kinds of RP, allowing for more shops, more crime, more corruption, new avenues for RP, and much more. Ration cuts/shortages would actually mean something.

    This even brings opportunities to the outlands. An increase in the flow of money would allow people to pursue black market interests. You wouldn't be stuck sitting around base or walking around in circles anymore.

    Obviously if a white market exists, so does the black market. I think I should say that black markets need more representation. I know the very mention of black market dealers and the like might send you into an unbridled rage, but hear me out.

    There has not been a single instance, to my knowledge, that there was not SOMEONE profiting from violent conflict. Every army, both insurgent and national, pays for their supplies. Even then, someone has to acquire or manufacture those supplies, someone has to pay for the materials needed to manufacture supplies, etc. Everything has a cost. If we're trying to provide a compelling, immersive, and realistic rp environment, the black market needs a little slack. If you don't like having war profiteers around camp, don't let them it. But I digress.

    While we desperately need more money circulating, that doesn't necessarily mean we should just let the floodgates loose. A massively inflated economy is just as bad as one in recession.

    the economy is shit heres why
    • no money
    • money important to drive rp
    • work shifts are boring, lame, and pay nothing
    • more money gets destroyed than put out
    • combine need to give us more money, but not too much
    • let war profiteering happen
     
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  2. AlbinoGlowStick

    AlbinoGlowStick CCA.C17-KOBRA.SqL.85900

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    Economies just seem like an odd buzzword to get people to waste their time tbh, like you said what is there for a citizen to buy? Food and an apartment? Don't get me wrong I'm down for the occasional food prep/eating RP, but when it comes to actual script food, greenbar is just a burden and forces "RP" no one really cares for or wants to do. A black market also sounds nice, but if we've seen anything from the BMD's this iteration it usually creates an SRP esque;

    *BMD sets up a stand and spawns some gun props around it and a refugee/rebel shows up*
    "Hello I would like 1 AK plox"
    "Sure my ~SOURCE~ has given them to me, that will be 1000 tokens!"
    *player presses c on the BMD, gives them tokens, then the BMD goes into their menu and spawns an AK*

    I'd say the scenarios where players/admins created RP objectives for people to get weapons creates a much more interesting and meaningful RP such as the time Loving and friends sailed to an old submarine base, Shawn and friends broke into 7hour war era BTR's, or even just the basic Lambda reps giving odd jobs and showing up later with a truck o guns.

    e; And as for crime RP, nothing sucks more than wasting all your time trying to get credits so you can just run some bar rp only for some dudes to walk in with and shit on it all because they decided to play ~Italian greaseball mobsters~ who want their protection money.
     
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    #2 AlbinoGlowStick, Nov 13, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2017
  3. ClearlyInvsible

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    I feel like the TLDR of this can be summed up as unkill citizen RP
     
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  4. _Vintricus

    _Vintricus Zealot

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    ive always seen the economy as "here's a currency which has a worth that is dictated by a totalitarian regime. the value of this currency is entirely determined by the combine and it can change on a whim." the combine have such a large amount of resources that, for all intents and purposes, they probably dont even need a currency. i kinda see the whole point of the currency IC'ly as just another way to keep people in line. if suddenly larger portions of the population are getting rich, the combine devalues the credit. too poor? they increase the value. it's another way of control. giving it an actual "capitalistic" purpose would most likely defeat its intentions.
     
  5. djunkie

    djunkie Senior Member

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    Yeah, I feel like everyone would benefit from more citizen rp. At the current stage, most everyone has developed their character into a rebel, unit, or loyalist. There's not much going on in between anymore, so most factions are limited to rp amongst themselves. Citizens kind of help to merge the gap and make the city feel lively again, giving both the cca and the resistance more to do. Idk if this can really be fixed tho unless we see more PK/TK's or everyone just agrees to start using citizens more.
     
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  6. AlbinoGlowStick

    AlbinoGlowStick CCA.C17-KOBRA.SqL.85900

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    lol "unkill CitizenRP" nothing is stopping you guys from making a bar, starting a slums group like that one group did in i17, or just rping a basic citizen getting his shoons and getting beaten by cops. Introducing an economy isn't gonna magically make people want to do citizenRP, it will just force people to do monotonous tasks to get to the RP they want to do.

    tl;dr want citizenRP? JUST DO IT.
     
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  7. djunkie

    djunkie Senior Member

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    Honestly yeah I miss the kinda shit @Benji Dooble @Giancana and watchman did back on i17 with the whole slummy community they had going. There was always something going on there and always rp to find, which additionally attracted new players to the community. The problem is nobody wants to do citizen rp unless they got a group of ppl to do it with. But like I'm down for it if others are.
     
  8. ClearlyInvsible

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    This is when I point out the fact that people are so entrenched in their mains that they refuse to do this.

    Not to claim I'm a saint, I spend effectively all of my time on my unit. But it's something the server as a whole needs to improve on.
     
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  9. AlbinoGlowStick

    AlbinoGlowStick CCA.C17-KOBRA.SqL.85900

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    Probably because that's the kind of RP they wanna do? I can tell you when I am free to get on I just want to do the RP that interests me (rebel). There's no point in "improving" RP people aren't interested in and won't actually do. Now if the four of you who posted asking to unkill citizenRP actually get on and do something, then all the power to ya.
     
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  10. ClearlyInvsible

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    But there's an overarching problem with this; the new folks. This means to even get RP they either have to become a unit or go rebel. And let's be real here, that kinda fuckin' sucks. It makes the server feel like World War 3 RP except instead of NATO/Warsaw it's UU/Rebellion.

    We can't force folks to play certain roles, sure, but we can always try and incentivize more possible roles for people to play. Because I'll be frank, in the server's current state? I can't reccomend it to people, not without telling them 'Join my side' or 'join the other one'. And with something in HL2RP that's supposed to be rather FREEFORM? That's a fuckin' travesty.

    When people only have two avenues to RP, that's a problem. It's a problem that needs fixing. I'll try to do my part, but we can't just go 'lol not my problem', flick everyone to bird and go back into our hideyholes.
     
  11. Symmetry

    Symmetry Kwisatz Haderach

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    I think credits or tokens would exist mainly so that the citizens don't have to resort to a barter economy among themselves. Because that inevitably leads to more theft and violence, not to mention bootlegging.
     
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  12. Sneezing Slug

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    Okay, but what IF there was a barter economy.

    Always thought it would be interesting if we did away with credits and instead you got ration coupons from workshifts/units, which could then be turned at the dispenser for 1 ration per coupon- which just give you food, and no credits (because they wouldn't exist)

    I mean I think we can all agree that credits/green bar/rations/script items are nonessential to RP but they're an important visual that helps people who have a hard time visualizing these things themselves. It gives them a point of reference to work from.
     
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  13. Cato

    Cato Senior Member

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    I've heard that idea before, the ration coupons almost turn into a semi form of currency themselves, items and coupons exchanged back and forth. Does that person want to turn in that coupon for some food? Or do they wanna try and hold it and barter it off for something better, like maybe a warm coat or some food at a bar. Could work.
     
  14. Anri

    Anri cutie
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    i think blaming the death of citizen rp on credits or the lack thereof is like blaming the cooks at mcdonalds for the bad food

    we're how-many-years into the iteration? we're headed into the uprising too, faster with every day. i understand that it'd be nice to have citizens scrambling for cover in a cca-rebel shootout or hiding and what not, but the majority of the players clearly doesnt find that interesting enough to do it themselves

    it kinda sucks for new players but i suppose thats the byproduct of being so late to the end-party
     
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  15. bison

    bison Zealot

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    you can give a guy a million credits but if he's immediately frigid around anyone he doesn't already know and can't hold a decent conversation for more than 15 seconds then it's all for naught
     
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  16. K33f3!

    K33f3! Leave me alone

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    It honestly makes more sense than using credits.
     
  17. AlbinoGlowStick

    AlbinoGlowStick CCA.C17-KOBRA.SqL.85900

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    I like the idea of ratio coupons. Added bonus, think of all the funny excuses people will say on how they got so many so soon without starving.
     
  18. ClearlyInvsible

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    Ration coupons certainly seems more fitting. Somewhat like foodstamps. One coupon for a ration, three for a new coat. Yada yada yada,
     
  19. FervensPb

    FervensPb Legend

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    This argument is predicated on two fallacies:
    1) Roleplay follows scripted money
    2) Credits are worth anything in character

    To address these in turn: roleplay does not follow scripted money. None of my characters have had any net flow into or out of their bank accounts since I made them. I have had no trouble roleplaying.

    To the latter point: credits are used to buy things from a regime-powered commissary, like tooth-brushes, or shaving cream. There is no official free market in City 17. Any secondary market for credits, or trade for non-sanctioned goods, constitutes black market, whether CPs turn a blind eye to it or not.

    Let me repeat that:

    There is no free market.

    There are no jobs. There is no private employment. There are no stocks. There are no bonds. There is no competition. Anything constituting these would be a manifestation of black-market and, at best, would be ignored by your standard beat-cop.

    At worse, it would count as a breach of sociostability. The bars that people roleplay, the businesses, are vestigial wounds from Dark RP, or earlier, less fleshed out iterations of HL2RP. Your citizen character does not work a 9-5 at a diner on record.They work on an assembly line, or filing paperwork, or managing people who do one of those things. If they skip their work shift and live hiding from the Combine's watchful eye, trying to eke out a living on the secondary market, then they are, for all intents and purposes, committing anti-civil activity.

    The best way to justify the existence of those IC are to take them as the sort of below-the-radar free market that North Korea has been experimenting with since the 90s. Reissuing credit allotments for sanitary or dietary needs on the secondary market is probably the most broken and most ignored law of the land, but it is still a law.

    This is the one element of credit allotment that is interesting: the subversive element of it. If you're running a dive bar and cops come in, your life is on the line. If you're dealing fresh fruit from the back of a van, you are gambling with your life for a handful of fresh razor blades.

    Let's say that you are running a legitimate establishment, though: let's say you work a 12 hour shift in a watering hole that belongs to the state. Let's say that every credit you earn does not go into your pocket, but is eternally recycled, that you only serve piss-weak beer and oily gin and your customers, fresh out of their shifts assembling sub-machine guns, hate you for it. Are you going to act like a small business owner and worry about the sustainability of such a system? Or will you use your tiny amount of sway, the fact that you own a working lock and key, to hold insurrectionary rallies behind closed doors after hours? Maybe you'll serve a known off-duty cop a few too many so a group of toughs can get the drop of him in an alley down the way?

    It doesn't matter what you do: roleplay shines between the cracks - in the greasy nooks and crannies between what the status quo is and how you disrupt it. Don't worry about how much it costs you. If you want a license, post an auth thread, or just ask an admin for a few extra credits. None of them will likely think twice if you can string a sentence together.

    Stop worrying about something that doesn't mean shit.

    "Your" pocketbook does not equate to creative drive.
     
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    #19 FervensPb, Nov 13, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2017
  20. Sneezing Slug

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    A black market/underworld economy was what I was referencing with my post, honestly the idea of an economy within the Union is, as you've so illustratively pointed out, completely nonexistent.

    Even when it comes to business beyond the limits of the Combine's influence it's still credits. It'd be neat to experiment with a underworld economy focusing on tangibles instead of a currency standard.

    In fact, the whole bartering bit even goes further with the point that there isn't a free market in the Union. The only "currency" is ration coupons, something that only holds some form of value in their oppressive regime and nowhere else.
     
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    #20 Sneezing Slug, Nov 13, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2017
  21. RGB

    RGB I am not a bot
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    Hi, I was actually given a million credits once.

    It did fuck-all to help anything as a BMD.
     
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  22. Emelianenko

    Emelianenko Legend

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    I like this discussion. Great points all around. I'll jump in for a bit.

    I had to post myself though because I have to ask, isn't this question being asked too late? Hasn't this community dealt with this basically pointless economy system for over a decade? Why discuss this now when the iteration is so close to being done? I don't want to discourage all the good brainstorming going on here, but the monkey's been climbing on the server's back for ages now and ya'll already got all the spinal problems. The pulled discs. Crane neck. Why bother at all now, basically?

    This won't really apply to Tekka, I think, and I don't think the next iteration will be any time soon. If there's one.

    Another thing that made me had to post was that another problem I find with people's good solutions here is that they rely so much on player initiative. Rightfully so, but it just ain't there anymore. Not much, from the year I been here that I've seen. Not saying people aren't putting in the effort either, but if we had people really putting into momentum some of the brilliant ideas I've seen on here, the end of the iteration wouldn't be coming up right now, right? We said for months, 'Hey, we need more scientists and doctors to get the sciency HL2 stuff going," and we barely moved a muscle. Some tried really hard, but all we got was like an inch of progress because it was so hard to get the ball rolling. Then there was that whole ghetto medicare idea where the CMS was scrapped so there'll be more streetdocs to promote more civilian roleplay, and that went nowhere.

    Basically, my point is that people are just kind of burnt out too much to do that sort of thing anymore. I guess.

    Most importantly, let's not go blaming people for not doing civilian RP. It's been three years. The population is dying. HL2 is way past its expiration date, and most of the people still playing are people who have been here for nearly a year or more than a few. Some close to a decade. If you ain't playing a citizen at least half the time yourself, you got no right to throw stones. Know what I mean? The end is coming. Just enjoy it. Like others said in this thread, money means jack shit and does jack shit anyway. I dunno, worry more about making the last few months or maybe the next year more enjoyable. You can call money ration cards all you want, but that never really changed about the economy to me. I did absolute bollocks with the money I had.
     
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  23. nec

    nec rank 1 retard
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    come back home now
     
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  24. nec

    nec rank 1 retard
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    On a more serious note, there's a lot of good points made in this thread but ultimately the broader purpose of credits fell off as time went by and the economy inflated massively. The majority of the resistance opts to barter instead of 'trading' with credits, and most people just have food scripts spawned in for them if they ask, since everyone can agree that the green bar serves no purpose other than to be annoying.

    Seriously though, if you want to set up a bar or something, ask an admin and they'll gladly kickstart you with some food scripts/credits to get things rolling. But blaming a lack of citizen RP on the lack of credits isn't really right, cause if people wanted to be playing civilians they'd just be doing it, instead people wanna get involved with the faction conflict as the server starts moving towards an uprising. Trying to reintroduce an economy on top of our already inflated mess isn't really gonna work, just start doing things.
     
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  25. Rabid

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    As someone who played in various communities that held an active economy and a BMD system, let me be straight:

    Having an economy in a setting like HL2 is literally the worst thing you can for encouraging RP that isn't focused around the acquisition of credits. While it works for citizens in some ways, it naturally spreads to other factions (primarily The Resistance) which is where the trouble is. In no particular order (and I am speaking of a market in full swing, by the way, that I have seen several times now):
    • BMD's become the defacto 'leads' with the most power given they dictate exactly who it is has access to weaponry and armor, and are often loathe to give anything out that is a net loss for them as they lose credits.
    • Your entire worth becomes dictated by credits. If you have none and cannot afford any and cannot earn any, good luck.
    • Scripts cost credits. You cannot get a gun without them, unless you are lucky. They are often expensive. Thus you become more concerned with not losing that script that you worked a long time to save up for than doing anything like an actual 'rebel'.
    • Undercutting and infighting is common.
    • Most of the RP you'll grow to see is about buying and selling as people work to save up for their next weapon/armor instead.
    • Because BmD's become the main source of weaponry and armor they become functionally untouchable. Killing one is a very bad idea.
    Suffice to say, having credits be a big part and thus allowing BmD's to spring up and become formal is a very good way to turn RebelRP into MerchantRP and foster mentalities that are really difficult to shake. It is literally the worst thing you can do.
     
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  26. nec

    nec rank 1 retard
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    Hard truths, a lot of the retards we get now and then come from these types of communities.
     
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  27. Cato

    Cato Senior Member

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    I've seen some really horrid shit that people did to a each other in previous communities I was apart of when BMD's were active and scripts were hard to come by. Lots of PK's happening because one guy got a power boner and started killing all the other "rebels" citing that his character saw them as competition as some kind of justification. Resulting in massive amounts of butthurt and rage quitting. No plot ever got driven and the "resistance" were to busy shooting each other instead of actually being semi productive, (not like they woulda did anything anyways besides shotcop anyways.) TLDR: Rabid's perfectly right.
     
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  28. ClearlyInvsible

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    BMDs in my experience just cause STALKER syndrome, where Traders just rule the roost.
     
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  29. Levinx2

    Levinx2 Zealot

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    not me
    The way I see it, BMD flags I have ... or will lose actually is that we have a steady or somewhat irregular stream of weaponry and ammunition, but obviously I'm not talk everyday. ICly at most, shipments may come within months or so.
    ok that thing i said was redundant
    shit
     
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  30. LawlMan

    LawlMan Zealot

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    I think a lot of good points are being made here, excellent ones at that. Though has anyone truly considered that maybe we're a little late to the party on this one?

    We're pushing rather hard towards a uprising setting, and any citizen RP to be had at this point is going to be very basic and simple, and also not lead to anywhere for the majority of the time. This isn't to say that there can be some entertaining roleplay or especially fun conversations to be had in character, I never minded the bit of citizen roleplay between others myself. It's always good to pass the time with, but in the grand scheme of things people are now finally beginning to split off into sides. The UU or the rebellion. That's how it seemed to be even in the actual Half Life games. Towards the end, you saw barely(if any, it's been a few since I've played) citizens caught in crossfires or taking shelter in ruined buildings.

    I'm also not trying to say that working on this for the future is a bad thing, I just want to remind people that this was bound to happen as we got closer to the end of this iteration. And we're only getting closer. While I do agree with @Rabid I don't think that it would hurt to give a little bit of incentive to the players to do something citizen-like, on a neutral character. Though even then, don't you think citizens are also beginning to pick sides realistically? Especially with the rise of propaganda and messages from the UU and the rebels. Those who are neutral aren't going to remain that way for long.

    Just a few personal thoughts on the matter.
     
  31. Anri

    Anri cutie
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    in the end, if people enjoyed ~citizen rp~, they'd still be doing it. nothing's stopping anyone from using the plethora of tools available - i.e. the create thread function to invite others, or the rp exchange thread -, but few do that (yet more complain).

    not having citizens blows and it boils down to the iteration's age, the cca's relative openness, the resistance's forced & full openness and ofc player interest. respect to those that want to revive it, but im not one of those people.


    it's a problem that can only be fixed by those complaining about it, but the complaints aren't "i can't" - it's almost always "they don't". ive made fully functional citizen chars in the past, with mixed or no loyalties, but my source of rp was always either of the factions

    in the words of a wise man:
    "it is not good that the thing be how it do, but it do how it be"
     
  32. Benji Dooble

    Benji Dooble Diamond in the rough
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    Spawn npcs for civvies during the uprising.
     
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  33. Owain6521

    Owain6521 XCCR Ration Hoarder

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    is this capitalism in miniature

    But in all seriousness, I stand by my previous suggestion that citizen RP cannot occur consistently and with growth in anything, on the economic level, but a barter economy. With a credit system, and a currency, there's an inevitable point where all your gains just leave you with nothing else to push for, or with a stagnant situation, or are nothing more than a means to an end. But when you encourage people to build underground moonshine stills, improvised clinics, safehouses, basement arms works, corrupt administrators, corrupt units, rebels who are actually reliant on the civic populace for their arms and safety, that's when you built a system that's reliant on others roleplaying, and you roleplaying in turn, rather than how many beanies you can hawk before you join the resistance.

    Because really, what is the purpose of a free market, business-based economy in a state like the Union? Because it's not really predicated on civic economic growth and trickle-down economics, given that it has the power to drain the sea and construct huge monolithic structures in weeks with no real issue. If it needs something, it absorbs. It doesn't stare sheepishly at stocks.

    And the argument that 'oh it's to keep citizens happy!' doesn't stand up too far, either. This is a regime that regularly conducts apartment raids and blackbags citizens in full view, abuses citizens for personal amusement, engages in full-contact hunting of fleeing refugees or resistance fighters- going so far as to shoot collaborators with the resistance without any attempt at legal order (just look at the guy who tries blocking the door during the apartment raid). The regime doesn't care, and Breen's attempts do very little to placate already apathetic or restless citizens.

    e: again, unless citizen groups like stills and supply runners feel invested in eachother then you're not going to have consistent or growing citizen rp, though there's other issues like the ease of joining the resistance and cca (not that joining the cca is an issue, it's the fact it's such a clear positive that is) that come into it too and usually come back to dave
     
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    #33 Owain6521, Nov 13, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2017
  34. Benji Dooble

    Benji Dooble Diamond in the rough
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    It's not hard to start some IC item trading or shit like that, Lazlo was a drug dealer and a movie dealer, and yeah Lazlo wasn't a citizen by any means, but that don't mean little Joe Shmoe can't start a moonshine speakeasy or grow some weed plants in an attic or basement. Action speaks louder than words, really. I'll be starting some shit this week now that I got the drive to again.
     
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  35. Owain6521

    Owain6521 XCCR Ration Hoarder

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    I think the issue is that yeah, you can start up a moonshine still or a movie copying setup, but if there's not other groups and apartment blocks and workshops and underground, improvised bars to interact with? It tends to fall flat and just burn out whoever tries. The system for it has to be constructed from the ground up, with heavy emphasis on it from the start and strong restrictions on legal, credit-based systems.
     
  36. Owain6521

    Owain6521 XCCR Ration Hoarder

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    Extra way to prop it up, while I'm on a tangent? Heavy, HEAVY emphasis on citizen workshops for producing improvised arms like Stens or pipe-guns for the resistance, as well as seizing arms from Civil Protection; rather than outside 'arms dealers' who seem to have everything to hand. This leads to rebels either engaging with units or CCA sites in order to seize equipment, at risk, or actually engaging with citizens in order to get a hold of the arms and equipment they need.
     
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  37. Benji Dooble

    Benji Dooble Diamond in the rough
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    I think we're a bit too far in to build an entire system from the ground up and all we can do is try and make some pre-existing market to stimulate the environment and have people catch on with that, which people will if there's good incentive to do that kinda role play instead of /me sits at bar waiting for drink and impending doom of being beaten
     
  38. LawlMan

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    I think another reason as to why people may not start up their own businesses and encourage citizen rp, is that they're worried about what they'll lose and gain rather than the roleplay that will become of it. Though as it's been proposed that you can just request an auth for credits or just as an admin, explain what you're doing, etc. That may lessen the intimidation factor or will make people less concerned about what they'll lose and gain with running that business/operation.
     
  39. Benji Dooble

    Benji Dooble Diamond in the rough
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    I bought a painting from @Rionas s food ball business and sold it to a unit, you just gotta entrepreneur this shit up.
     
  40. Owain6521

    Owain6521 XCCR Ration Hoarder

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    Easier solution would be to just take credits out of the equation and introduce barter goods or an emphasis on information or tasks in return for goods. The issue with credits and businesses is that they're a means to an end, which is usually to abandon your beanie business and join the resistance. Whereas if you are reliant on supplies of moonshine from an attic moonshine still, then you're going to need a runner to get it past CP searches and checkpoints. That runner's going to need a cut, and his cut can be bartered for other things like drugs, materials, or other needs of his. The moonshine still is going to want something, whether that's information on checkpoints and searches or otherwise, so you maybe get a corrupt CP to take a cut of the moonshine in order for him to rat on his comrades to you.

    And so on, and so on. Each individual piece of roleplay then leads to another, and another, and you end up with this kind of spiralling group of connections based on necessity if you can't just spawn in '5 beer' and be done with it.
     
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